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kevtherev
Forum Admin

Australia
354 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2006 :  22:03:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Women in the Church

Firstly, let us look at the women in Scripture who are commonly mentored as examples for women preachers today.

The primary Bible example of a woman leader is Deborah. Why did God make Deborah a judge in Israel (Jud. 4:4-5)? The answer is not complicated. The men in Deborah's day were weak and cowardly. This is seen in the fact that Barak, the chief of the armies of Israel, refused to go into battle except Deborah went with him. The woman had to remind him that God had said that it is time to fight; the woman had to encourage and confront him to go. Finally the woman had to go with him!

"And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go" (Jud. 4:8).

Deborah clearly realized that this was not correct or in a woman's natural position, and told Barak it would not result in his honour. "And she said, I will surely go with thee; notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman..." (Jud. 4:9).

It was a period in Israel's history which God could not find a man to do His will, so He used a brave, willing woman. God used women like Deborah who was willing to be strong when the men were weak. This has often happened, both in secular and in church history.

The problem in Deborah's era was spiritual apostasy. When God's people turn away from Him, He renders the men powerless against their enemies and removes His wisdom from their hearts. It is a consequence God puts upon apostate people. They cannot control their little children and women rule over them (compare Is. 3:12). This is also God's judgment today because of the apostate condition of many professing Christians. In Deborah's day Israel was in bondage to their enemies only because of their apostasy from the Jehovah God and His Word (Jud. 4:1-2). This was why the men were so weak and afraid. God had removed their power to fight, just as He did from sinful Samson.

"Therefore the flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not strengthen his force, neither shall the mighty deliver himself. ... And he that is courageous among the mighty shall flee away naked in that day, saith the Lord" (Amos 2:14-15).

Some may conclude then, "If God called Deborah to judge in Israel in the Old Testament, maybe He would call a woman to lead in a church today?" This can not happen, because God's Word has clearly forbidden the woman to teach or usurp authority over men in the churches (1 Timothy 2:11-12). We have to rightly divide the Word of Truth. We do not get our instructions for church work in the Old Testament; we get them from the New Testament. That is very basic principle of biblical interpretation.

Many women preachers justify their "ministries" by mentioning the daughters of Philip. All four were prophetesses (Acts 21:8-9). This does not mean that a woman can preach to men in exercising their gifts of prophecy, because that is strictly forbidden in 1 Timothy chapter two. The fact that God gives a prophetic gift to women does not mean they are liberated to take authority in the church or to ignore the scriptural boundaries against preaching or teaching to men.



It is interesting that when Paul was staying at Philip's house, God brought a male prophet from another city to prophesy to Paul instead of using Philip's daughters.

"And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles" (Acts 21:8-11).

There is no doubt that God gives the gifts of prophecy to women. On the day of Pentecost, Peter promised that God would do this: "And on ... my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2:18). But the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who gives the gifts, has placed restrictions upon the application of those gifts. In 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 are numerous scriptures dealing with gifts and how they function in the church. Immediately after forbidding the women to speak in church services in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the apostle Paul warned that those who pay no attention to this instruction are not spiritual. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14:377).

Many ask, "Why does blessing seem apparent upon the ministries of some women who preach and teach to men?"

Firstly, sometimes God blesses the ministry of His Word in spite of the errors of the preacher. In such cases, though, the preacher (whether it be man or woman) will only receive personal reward for the labour inasmuch as it was done according to the Word of God (1 Cor. 3:6-15; 2 Tim. 2:5).

Secondly, many times that which seems to be God's blessing is not. The Mormon Church is one of the fastest growing "churches," but it is false prophets preach a false gospel, likewise the Roman Catholic Church which is the largest "church" in the world. Whatever apparent blessings these "churches" have only a deception, because it is not from God. The Bible warns repeatedly of the danger of spiritual deception. There are many false gospels, false christs, false spirits (2 Cor. 11:3-4). Jesus warned of the multitude who will stand before Him in the judgment and will boast of their spiritual activities, but He says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:23). The devil himself poses as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:15).

The bottom line is that the Bible forbids the woman to teach or to usurp authority over the man. Beware of being influenced by the rebellion of the hour.

"Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, was in the transgression" (1 Tim. 2:11-14).

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14:34-37).

Posters Comment: This was in response to a question asked in a news group: "What are womens positions are in the Church."

http://www.pottersclub.com/articleshow.asp?art_num=80

thflores
Sub Lieutenant

11 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2006 :  13:33:41  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
this is garbage, I will challenge anyone on the subject any takers
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kevtherev
Forum Admin

Australia
354 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2006 :  16:51:33  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
The correct way to challenge, would be to write your response with contextual scriptural reference, that way it has real weight - otherwise some may think that your short rebuttal, is of no substance. It may also help to do a small bible study on the matter and provide that. Your challenge does not have to be word perfect just a little more detailed about your actual issues with the article, remembering the person who wrote the article, is imperfect like all of us, so a little respect and a lot of grace goes a long way and will serve you well.
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thflores
Sub Lieutenant

11 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2006 :  00:13:29  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
The Word says that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh and your sons and doughters wlll prophesy (Joel 2:28-29) and the word prophesy here is the word (preach / proclaim the good news). another scripture states in (Gal 3:28)"There is niether Jew nor greek nor slave nor free,nor male or female but all are one in Christ Jesus (equal). this is the same word (one) that Jesus used when he said "the Father and I are one" (John 10:30) stating that Jesus and God are equal in power and authority. what we are dealing with here in scripture when it comes to woman. is that woman have the same authority as a man when it comes to ministering authority. some may say woman do not have authority over men in a Potters House Church. but try disagreeing with your pastor's wife and see what authority she really does have. I agree that a woman probably should not be the senior Pastor, but there are many woman in scripture that held high authority over men. and the same people who say woman do should not have authority have books about woman that had authority, I know many Potter's House and Door churches where the pastor has books by Kathryn Kuhlman, Maria Woodworth Etter, and old Amie Simple in thier library...if they truly don't believe this than why do they read about them and honor them, is it becuase God used them mightly and we respect that. Wow! amagine that God using a woman to reach the world. and how many husbands were brought to church by a praying wife, it's just another lie from the enemy to keep 50% of the church silent. lets take a scenerio "If Kathryn Khulman was still alive and she came wanting to minister in your church would you really say no.

Just for the record: lets not forget that Pastor Wayman Mitchell was saved in a church fellowship that was started by a woman, and went to a Bible Collage that was started by a woman (LIFE Bible Collage). What if God did not allow the Church or the Bible Collage that he went to, to exist becuase it was a woman that started it, Pastor Mitchell may never have found his call and this whole fellowship may never existed and you and I may still be in the world living in sin and he may not be who he is today if it were not for a woman. (lets give honor were honor is due) so don't bash woman in leadership too much remember that the roots of the Potter's House do come from a ministry that was started by a woman. *Please excuse my spelling

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InTheShadows
Lieutenant Commander

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  08:28:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow. Good points. Who is Kathryn Khulman and the other women you write of?

Someone stole my sig
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thflores
Sub Lieutenant

11 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  14:29:50  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I showed complete scriptures in my statement and followed all 8 rules carefully. why don't you post it so all could see? I gave scripture and my argument was valid. I heard Mitchel's take on woman in church 2006 Perth conference and must say it was a poor interpretaion of scripture. what i heard was personal opinion with alot of amens rather than what the word says. prove me wrong by showing me what scripture he used that ratained to the subject without his personal take. he does not even use the 8 rules. and this is not a personal attack on him in any way. i'm just standing on the word. we all have a right to question a statement or a teaching and see if it matches with scripture. No matter who is preaching the word wheather it is Wayman Mitchel or Billy Graham no one is above that. show me scripture that hold this truth without personal interpratation and I will admit that I am wrong if I am
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kevtherev
Forum Admin

Australia
354 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2006 :  17:23:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Hold back for a minute, It is not for anyone else to prove someone else's sermon - and hey I haven't even heard the sermon, and I don't know what your talking about - "Why don't I post it" I guess that is refering to something you have written - You are the only one that can post your posts, if there is a malfunction then simply post again and make sure you press refresh when you visist the page again to check. just take it easy and explain yourself clearly - and on another note - I don't see that that women in leadership are being bashed as suggested by you, 2 posts ago.

Thanks from Kev - Forum and Site Admin
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thflores
Sub Lieutenant

11 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  14:51:44  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
my mistake
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nick
Commander

Australia
240 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  18:38:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I know the sermon you are refering to, it was at Perth this year and is on www.waymanmitchell.com

Nick.
www.kkkau.com

www.waymanmitchell.com www.pottershouse.com
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nick
Commander

Australia
240 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  18:39:07  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
See http://www.pottershouse.com/files/2006/2006-Tuesday_7pm-Wayman_Mitchell.mp3

Nick.
www.kkkau.com

www.waymanmitchell.com www.pottershouse.com
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nick
Commander

Australia
240 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  18:41:25  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Becuase I am a little pressed for time I will give you some links that speak on this issue.

http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/KathrynKuhlmanandHerSpiritGuide.htm

Nick.
www.bible.net.au

www.waymanmitchell.com www.pottershouse.com
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InTheShadows
Lieutenant Commander

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  08:44:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First off, I thought it was silly how the preacher said all women newscasters were "babes". Almost as if there's something wrong with looking nice. He mentioned how come there were no "comely" women covering the news. Weird. Second, on making disciples, he said how it was a mans' job and when those disciples fail, it's because they didn't have the "balls" (I'm putting the word down as it's referred in English instead of Spanish like he said). Enough balls to do what? Does he think that God "curses" or destroys a disciple (follower of Christ/Christian) because the pastor/headship did something wrong, as in not showing him the right way to be a disciple? Third, Spirit of Jezebel. I don't understand what he's talking about here. Fourth, As for the woman who sat in a counseling session with her husband who was a pastor, it wasn't too clear that she actually counseled anyone. I think he just assumed that she did. My opinion is maybe to keep her husband's testimony clear and unbleashed especially if counseling another woman, the wife is a witness to all that goes on. Lastly, when he told the story about when he was working at a garage and the two "chicks" (he likes that word) came by, it's almost like he views all women like that. Looking for sex or hot to trot. I just got that from him. Another thing is he doesn't understand how we feel (or those pastors wives that he was talking too at the end) because he is not one of us. A woman. Here he talked and made clear how male and females are different, a natural order or something like that but yet, he's saying how he knows what those women are going through? And then once again, I got the feeling of him thinking that all women "wear the pants" and men are wimps for allowing it. I do agree that women are not to pastor a church and a husband is the head of the household. I do believe that a wife has a say in how that household is to be managed or run. And yes, the church as well. Not from a "thus sayeth I" position, if you follow me, but a woman's opinion/views should be heard. I must admit, it was very interesting to hear.

Someone stole my sig

Edited by - InTheShadows on 06 Sep 2006 08:47:08
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abigurl2005
Midshipman

3 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2006 :  07:38:17  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
i believ that pastor Mitchelle was reffering to the fact that most women on TV are practically naked and fleshy... There so free and loose that they come off as bombshells.

-Abigail-
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