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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  00:11:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old

My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 70 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can access my website through Google by typing in hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/is_hell_eternal_index.html

davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  16:59:08  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
With regard the 'purpose of evil' document, by A. P. Adams, I quote :

quote:
We must conclude that all the evil we see about us in every horrifying form and in all its vast amount comes under the same category of part and parcel of the great plan that through sin, corruption, chaos and death is moving on to holiness, purity, order and life eternal.


So, reading the document, one comes to the conclusion the author is stating that the god presented has a plan, whereby everyone is saved and comes to holiness, purity, order and life eternal through suffering and pain.

Why would an all powerful being, create evil as is stated in the documents you are presenting, have humanity and animals and the like suffer torturous pain and suffering, to reach and end-point that the author claims is the nature of the god anyway? This goes against the stated purity of the divine beings nature you are putting forward.

I cannot see how this can be construed as an all-loving nature that is presented. I do not see at all how this approaches the problem of evil, indeed it leaves as many questions open as does any other interpretation.

Godless Heathen
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  21:03:40  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition” click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down to
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (an online scriptural exposition)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  22:08:43  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Where are your beliefs coming from however? You seem to have fitted concepts into a belief system.

Let's look at the points you present, and follow them thru to a conclusion based on logic :

- God exists
- God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
- A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
- An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
- An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
- A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
- If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.

Yet Evil exists, how therefore does the god that you present, possibly exist?

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 25 Apr 2009 22:10:04
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  11:36:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

In response to the last line of your post regarding 'evil'...let me remind you, He/God didn't create it. He gave us the freedom to choose either to worship Him or not, or we'd simply be as machines doing His will. He doesn't want that!. He has given us the choice to show our loyalty and love to Him without us being pre-programed beings serving Him without unconditional love and the freedom of choice to do such.

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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  12:55:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Yes God in fact did create evil. Isaiah 45:7
But in doing so He Himself did not sin.

By the time the consummation of God's plan of the ages has occured He will have transformed all evil and suffering into something better that it all happened and then He will eradicate all evil and suffering from existence. See

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
especially read the very last paragraph on that link
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  13:00:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
THE FALLACY OF "FREE WILL"

Copy and paste into Goodge
IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
Or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
or
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm
or
http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm
or
http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd2/freewillnote.html

or copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  14:00:21  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
ahh rodgertutt, so your god is not all good/benevolent?

It seems such a petty thing for an omnispresent, omniscient being to create something to punish it, or to create something to take it away. From your definition, we are but a machine of Fate, there is no choice, god is a jealous and petty supreme being concerned over what we think of him .. that is not my idea of what a supreme being would be like.

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  14:18:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Davo,

In response to the last line of your post regarding 'evil'...let me remind you, He/God didn't create it. He gave us the freedom to choose either to worship Him or not, or we'd simply be as machines doing His will. He doesn't want that!. He has given us the choice to show our loyalty and love to Him without us being pre-programed beings serving Him without unconditional love and the freedom of choice to do such.



rodgertutt disagrees with you?

I would have to say his version of a god is more consistent and logical. Tho I agree with you, it does not make for an appealing god.

Please try reading what I have to say, as I think you are missing a stark point regarding the concept of a god on the whole, one which rodgertutt is putting forward more logically. (however horrible I find this conceptualisation to be, it is consistent)

If a god knew everything from beginning to end, before creating. He knew exactly what choices you would make. He would know every step leading up to that choice, and being all powerful, be able to adjust it any way he wished before creating it. To you, you would have choice, but god would have known from the start, everything anyone would do and all the influences on it, and it chose to create, setting this in motion. It could not by his very nature, do something that god did not expect.

This is what I mean by 'machine'. your god knew what would happen, by definition had the ability not to have it happen, or happen a myriad of other ways, but chose to do it this way.

By definition, your god logically calls for 'fate' not 'choice'. Choice would mean you could do something god did not expect, upon his choice to create everything, knowing exactly everything that would happen, and the 'choices' you would make.

to such a being, you would just be fullfilling his wish. You could not deviate from what this god chose to set in motion, or are you saying you can do something god did not expect?

By your definition, you are trying to say that god did not create everything knowing exactly what his act of creation would start, or how to stop it. If this god chose not to avoid creating an existence with evil in it, then it could not be all good and benevolent.

This goes against the concept of an all powerful, all knowledgable supreme being, it defies the logic of such ability.

rodgertutt, seems more consistent logically in his explanations, however I still do not understand his reasoning for the leap to faith. It very much seems like a 'god of the gaps', finding a way that an invisible entity that created everything could exist.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 04 May 2009 14:21:17
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  20:29:02  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Whatever rodgertutt is putting forward 'more logically', we still dont have minds that can totally comprehend the rationale of an Eternal God. We have to accept that whether we like it or not...not to say that theres anything wrong with exploring and studying these issues.

You mention ' fate not choice'...yes I believe God knew everything including the choices we'd make before hand, but that still doesn't detract from the decisions WE CHOOSE to make in our daily lives. For example, If God chose to intervene in every wrong decision we made, how would we learn?. Sin is serious, or why would God choose to sacrifice His only Son to die for us.

This is why the scriptures teach of the eternal consequeces of regecting His love and mercy. Yes!, He knows whos going to be saved and whos not, ( agreed this is hard to understand ) but thats the way He chose to fullfill His plans for those who choose to follow Him. I certainly dont have all the answers to THIS MYSTERY!.

Rodgertutt, you said, "seems more consistant logically in his explanations", and thats fine with me, but then how can we logically determine the mind of God?

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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  20:36:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

Also see the testimonies at
http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

Also see
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
(copy and paste into browser address bar)

SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/fewsaved.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm

I'm 70, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) because of my inability to love an endless-hell god. I’m 70 now.

If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines.
Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.
This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.

If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.

http://www.concordant.org/unsearchable/UnsearchableRiches.html

Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me. IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.

Here are several Concordant websites.
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.saviourofall.org/
http://gtft.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

I also would like to leave you with one more link. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html


It may begin to change your thinking.

The url of my own site is
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

God bless you in your study!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  20:51:23  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

Yes God in fact did create evil. Isaiah 45:7
But in doing so He Himself did not sin.

By the time the consummation of God's plan of the ages has occured He will have transformed all evil and suffering into something better that it all happened and then He will eradicate all evil and suffering from existence. See

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
especially read the very last paragraph on that link

Your interpretation of Isaiah 45:7 differs form mine! The bible in some translations, use the word "darkness" in that verse. You can construe that word as meaning 'evil' if you choose.
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  20:56:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
For me the important issue is that all evil and suffering are under God's control and when God has finished using evil and suffering He will erradicate them from existence.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/


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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  21:10:36  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Evil and suffering might be under His control, but He isn't the creator of evil as some suggest...it's not in his nature. And regarding suffering- that originated from disobedience, and that started right back to the DAWN of MAN!.

Edited by - Kevin on 04 May 2009 21:11:41
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  21:33:27  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I have a God Who did create evil, and He created it for a good purpose. Then when He has finished using the evil that He created He will eradiacte it from existence. Like I said before, God did not sin by creating evil.

THE PURPOSE EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  21:40:25  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Here's another good link on the same subject

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2009 :  21:55:41  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

I have a God Who did create evil, and He created it for a good purpose. Then when He has finished using the evil that He created He will eradiacte it from existence. Like I said before, God did not sin by creating evil.

THE PURPOSE EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html


"I have a God who didn't create evil"!... but yes, He can use circumstances and situations for our own good.

God can't create evil because He can't sin. It's not in His nature.

Edited by - Kevin on 04 May 2009 21:58:23
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  22:09:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Both of these two links expound why I believe that God created evil.
As is always the case, the strongest sets of influence will dictate what we choose to believe.

THE PURPOSE EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html



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rodgertutt
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  22:11:25  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I repeat, "God did not sin by creating evil."
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Kevin
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  22:39:22  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

I repeat, "God did not sin by creating evil."

And I repeat that God did not create evil!

Quote from as many extra-biblical sources and their interpretations you choose... and your play on words from these sources I'm afraid to say is getting a little tedious, but your welcome to them.


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rodgertutt
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  23:00:03  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Any reader who cares will investiagte our points of view and why we believe them and they will decide for themselves.

According to the Bible "all is of God howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge." 1Cor. 8:6&7

I can and do really relax in the arms of a God like that!!
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  23:16:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
By the way, did you know that the steps of a man are ordered by the Lord? Ps. 37:23
Did you know that the word "good" is not in the Hebrew text.
The translators just couldn't handle the idea that the steps of every man are ordered by the Lord.

Since I am keenly aware that I am not "good" I am so glad that I can believe that, according to the Bible, all my steps are ordered by the Lord and He will teach me all of the lessons that He wants me to learn from my temporary involvement in all of the evil and suffering that He created.
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Kevin
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Posted - 04 May 2009 :  23:58:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

By the way, did you know that the steps of a man are ordered by the Lord? Ps. 37:23
Did you know that the word "good" is not in the Hebrew text.
The translators just couldn't handle the idea that the steps of every man are ordered by the Lord.

Since I am keenly aware that I am not "good" I am so glad that I can believe that, according to the Bible, all my steps are ordered by the Lord and He will teach me all of the lessons that He wants me to learn from my temporary involvement in all of the evil and suffering that He created.

Well if the word "good" can't be found in the Hebrew texts, I'm sure there would be equivalents, as in our language.

Getting back to your first point Ps 37:23...I have no problems with that!.
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  00:17:26  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
The link you posted...'The Problem of Evil', suggests that God created evil because He created the tree of "The Knowledge of Good and Evil" Gen 2:17. He created the KNOWLEDGE OF not EVIL itself.
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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  00:55:42  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
If god didn't create evil, then he is not omnipotent, if god allowed evil to occur, he is not benevolent.

Let me get this right, your saying god, the ultimate being, cannot create evil? That goes against the logic of an omnipotent being, by definition is must be able to do anything. Why should it not be able to create evil?

Taking the benevolence out of the equation, makes the supposition of a god/supreme being a lot more plausible.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  01:08:06  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Quote from the scriptures where it states God created evil!.

You said, quote...' that goes against the logic of an omnipotent being '. Describe to me the mind of an omnipotent being?
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  02:14:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

If god didn't create evil, then he is not omnipotent, if god allowed evil to occur, he is not benevolent.

Let me get this right, your saying god, the ultimate being, cannot create evil? That goes against the logic of an omnipotent being, by definition is must be able to do anything. Why should it not be able to create evil?

Taking the benevolence out of the equation, makes the supposition of a god/supreme being a lot more plausible.

God is OMNIPOTENT whether as you say, He created evil or not because He has power over it and everything in His creation.

He is benevolent by allowing and showing us the consequences of evil, and the need to turn to Him who has power over it. The death of His Son shows the uglyness of sin.
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  02:21:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
WHAT GOD WILL ACHIEVE BY CREATING EVIL AND SUFFERING

THE PURPOSE EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html


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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  02:45:16  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Rodger,

You posted those 2 links not long ago. I'll ask you what I've just asked davo...and please just answer from the scriptures. Quote from the scriptures where it states God created evil!
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  03:23:41  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
"I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." (Is. 45:7). This passage is most strange and unaccountable on the ground of any of the current orthodox creeds. God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the word. What will you do with it? "We must explain it somehow," says Orthodoxy, "and yet save our creed. How shall it be done?

Suppose we say that the evil here spoken of is not moral evil, sin, or wrongdoing, but physical evil, famines, pestilences, tornadoes, etc., which God controls and sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." It will not do! The word here rendered evil is the one commonly used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin, wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used.

The Hebrew word here translated "evil" is "ra." Asserting that God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc, to be the sure fruits of sin is not an acceptable argument. Since the word "ra" is translated to denote sin nearly 500 times in our Authorized (King James) Version it surely means sin. And Isaiah tells us plainly that God created evil(sin). BUT IN DOING SO GOD HIMSELF DID NOT SIN.

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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  03:29:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE FOR CREATING SIN

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  10:32:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
God is OMNIPOTENT whether as you say, He created evil or not because He has power over it and everything in His creation.



Ominpotence itself is a paradox, for instance an omnipotent being could not make a stone, that it could not lift. If He can, then He is not omnipotent because He cannot lift the stone. If He cannot, He is not omnipotent since there is something He cannot do.

quote:

He is benevolent by allowing and showing us the consequences of evil, and the need to turn to Him who has power over it. The death of His Son shows the uglyness of sin.



I posted this elsewhere on the forum, I will repeat the paradox of a god as you present, being benevolent in nature, let's take your postulation that a god exists, and work from that :

- God exists
- God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
- A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
- An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
- An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
- A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
- If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.

Yet Evil exists, how therefore does the god that you present, possibly exist?

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 05 May 2009 10:33:53
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  13:15:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
God is a perfectly good being Who wants evil to temporarily prevail in His creation because He is going to use it to achieve a more glorious future for everyone than could have been achieved had evil not temporarily existed.

From the point of view of God's completed plan for the ages of time we will all look back and then we all will perfectly understand that it was better that everyting happened the way that it did.
That is what we call universal transformation, i.e. the transformation of all evil and suffering into something better that it temporarily prevailed.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  14:41:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

God is a perfectly good being Who wants evil to temporarily prevail in His creation because He is going to use it to achieve a more glorious future for everyone than could have been achieved had evil not temporarily existed.


If god was omnipotent he can do anything. therefore he would have no need to create evil. He could by the very definition of all powerful, create anything however he wanted.

There would be no need to have people suffer. Therefore he chooses this, according to yourself in your own words. He has chosen horrendous suffering and pain as his method .. yet he 'loves' us?

If god can do anything, including create without evil, but chooses to create with evil, then he is not totally benevolent, by logical definition.

This is what I have gathered from your explanations.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  16:29:21  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodgertutt

"I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." (Is. 45:7). This passage is most strange and unaccountable on the ground of any of the current orthodox creeds. God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the word. What will you do with it? "We must explain it somehow," says Orthodoxy, "and yet save our creed. How shall it be done?

Suppose we say that the evil here spoken of is not moral evil, sin, or wrongdoing, but physical evil, famines, pestilences, tornadoes, etc., which God controls and sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." It will not do! The word here rendered evil is the one commonly used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin, wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used.

The Hebrew word here translated "evil" is "ra." Asserting that God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc, to be the sure fruits of sin is not an acceptable argument. Since the word "ra" is translated to denote sin nearly 500 times in our Authorized (King James) Version it surely means sin. And Isaiah tells us plainly that God created evil(sin). BUT IN DOING SO GOD HIMSELF DID NOT SIN.



Rodger,

You used Isa 45:7 in a previous post to try to justify that God created evil. You can't base a belief on the interpretation of just one verse.

Yes God can make use of anything for His own purposes, inc. evil...but there's no scriptural evidence to support your claim that He created evil.

Edited by - Kevin on 05 May 2009 16:33:43
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  17:01:34  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

quote:
God is OMNIPOTENT whether as you say, He created evil or not because He has power over it and everything in His creation.



Ominpotence itself is a paradox, for instance an omnipotent being could not make a stone, that it could not lift. If He can, then He is not omnipotent because He cannot lift the stone. If He cannot, He is not omnipotent since there is something He cannot do.

quote:

He is benevolent by allowing and showing us the consequences of evil, and the need to turn to Him who has power over it. The death of His Son shows the uglyness of sin.



I posted this elsewhere on the forum, I will repeat the paradox of a god as you present, being benevolent in nature, let's take your postulation that a god exists, and work from that :

- God exists
- God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
- A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
- An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
- An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
- A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
- If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.

Yet Evil exists, how therefore does the god that you present, possibly exist?

Davo,

You stated regarding your 2nd qoute in the above post that you posted it before, is that right?..if so where?, and I'll have a look at it!.

And regarding your 3rd point on your list above, where did I say that? and I'll have a look at it.

And regarding your points on "EVIL"...I'm sure I've been over and over them with you time and time again!

It's impossible to fathom the mind of an all omniscient and omnipotent God, try as we may.

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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  17:39:57  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:

You stated regarding your 2nd qoute in the above post that you posted it before, is that right?..if so where?, and I'll have a look at it!.


Further up the thread.

quote:

And regarding your 3rd point on your list above, where did I say that? and I'll have a look at it.



again further up the thread, search for it under :

"God is OMNIPOTENT whether as you say, He created evil or not because He has power over it and everything in His creation."

If you are referring to the list of points #3 - "A perfectly good being would want to prevent aall evils."

By definition, an all powerful, all good being would have to stop evil, if it could not, it is not omnipotent, if it chose not too, it is not completely benevolent. Purity is purity.

quote:

And regarding your points on "EVIL"...I'm sure I've been over and over them with you time and time again!

It's impossible to fathom the mind of an all omniscient and omnipotent God, try as we may.



So your saying the same as rodgertutt? that god is not completely benevolent? only kind enough to do some things for us? This is a very deistic god, hmmm

I am not at all saying fathoming the mind of the god, this is nothing to do with the mind of a god, you are not approaching the points I made, in that such a thing as an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god could not exist in the first place, by definition. Let alone one that is completely benevolent.

Omnipresent is a paradox, would mean your god is also in hell, which according to christians, hell is the absence of god, so he could not be omnipresent either.
Omnipotence is a paradox, an all powerful being would not be able to create a rock it could not lift (as an example of many)
Omniscience is a paradox, does a god know what it's going to do tomorrow? If so, could it do something else?

If a god knows what is going to happen in the future, it is not able to omnipotently change that future because it is limited to what it knows will happen. If a god can omnipotently change that future then that god can not of known the future in the first place and is therefore not omniscient.

The concept of a god is one big paradox, this has nothing to do with the mind of a god.

Godless Heathen
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  19:54:22  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
THE BOTTOM LINE FOR ME

Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us where there will be no more crying or sorrow or pain or death.
I believe the Bible teaches that sooner or later all fallen creatures will be going to that place where we will learn that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did while on this earth.

Through the many and varied experiences of each life God will manifest and glorify and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each different individual.
That's the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  20:18:09  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I am very confused.

what you are saying is there is no purpose to life, as regardless we will be 'saved'? it is just something this supreme being is making us do? go through suffering and pain for no reason?

Eternity is a massive concept. If this life is less that 100 years, and eternity is .. eternity, I wonder what such a supreme being is even bothering .. why not just reveal all to us now? In the scheme of things, our time on earth is less than miniscule. If we are talking about a 'heaven' that encompasses infinity and eternity, everything, that our knowledge holds no bounds, there seems little point to making us suffer.

Indeed, eternity is an interesting concept. if god sent himself to earth as jesus, to die, then be born again, but this is just over 3 days, then gets to spend eternity in the ultimate paradise .. it does not seem like such a massive sacrifice at all.

Godless Heathen
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davo
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  20:22:14  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
rodgertutt

Indeed, there seems as tho, regardless, I will make it to heaven, there is no need to care what I do, eternity is eternity. In the scheme of things, any amount of punishment does not matter, for I will spend eternity in heaven.

That does not seem like such an 'enlightening' lesson to me from a supreme being.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:24:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

rodgertutt

Indeed, there seems as tho, regardless, I will make it to heaven, there is no need to care what I do, eternity is eternity. In the scheme of things, any amount of punishment does not matter, for I will spend eternity in heaven.

That does not seem like such an 'enlightening' lesson to me from a supreme being.

Davo,
I'll have to admit I wasn't sure as to whether you were trying to quote from me or yourself...' all these qoute on qoutes ' are getting a bit confusing...maybe a misunderstanding somewhere!
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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:32:53  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
God will transform all suffering into something better that it happened, including what the Bible calls kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for any who need to experience it.

Maintaining an attitude of deliberately choosing to hurt others for selfish motivations will no doubt result in kolasis aionion of greater intensity and duration.

Also, the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees will be transformed by God into something better that it happened.

The Bible says that God can do above what we can think, and I can't think any higher than universal transformation. I am convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts that we can think about God we can be sure that He is even better than that.

Like I said before, at some point in the future everyone will look back and understand that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.
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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:36:24  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

quote:
Originally posted by davo

rodgertutt

Indeed, there seems as tho, regardless, I will make it to heaven, there is no need to care what I do, eternity is eternity. In the scheme of things, any amount of punishment does not matter, for I will spend eternity in heaven.

That does not seem like such an 'enlightening' lesson to me from a supreme being.

Davo,

Not everyone will be spending eternity in heaven!...

- and regarding those quotes further up the thread...I think there was a misunderstanding on my part!...quotes on quotes can be confusing!


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Kevin
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:40:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

[quote]Originally posted by davo

rodgertutt

Indeed, there seems as tho, regardless, I will make it to heaven, there is no need to care what I do, eternity is eternity. In the scheme of things, any amount of punishment does not matter, for I will spend eternity in heaven.






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rodgertutt
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Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:40:53  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
According to the Bible, sooner or later everyone (including Satan) will spend eternity in heaven.

SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.

It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"

There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

Type into Google

The lake of fire Eby

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.




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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:46:21  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

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THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
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THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, Col. 1:20, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

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RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
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tentmaker books chapter eleven

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
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AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
And
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

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THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE AND DETERMINED TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND SOONER OR LATER WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

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CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (online reading)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2009 :  21:48:09  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Apologies to you both...as you can see just further up this thread, I've really stuffed up everything regarding " the qoutes ".

Wish we could delete our own posts on this forum!.
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2009 :  22:06:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I find it annoying that I receive 18 notifications which I have to delete evrytime anyone posts on this forum. I shall make this one last post and move on. I will not check "subscribe to this topic" this time. My email address is rodgertutt@sympatico.ca if anyone wants to tell me anything else.

Contrary to what Davo said, my belief that God will transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it happened, perfectly solves for me the existence of evil.

Like I said before, anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches.

People who can love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will not be interested in the following information

Copy and paste the following into Google.

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages. The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/


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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2009 :  09:21:37  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying rodgertutt that your version of christianity does not solve the problem of evil, it does.

What I am saying, is that eternity is very long, and that you are saying we will all be saved eventually.

When that happens, eternity has just begun.

So according to yourself, there is no need to worry about anything nor turn to god. We will be in heaven one day, and in the scheme of eternity the time spent 'suffering' is nothing compared. so live it up! enjoy this life to the full, and don't worry about heaven/hell, there's no need.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2009 :  10:16:28  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
If according to rodgertutt everyones going ot be saved eventually, then what of the importance of the sacrifice of Gods Son on the cross?

Same if you believe in reincarnation...if you can get it right after so many lives then who needs the cross of Christ?.

These beliefs detract from the core of the Christian faith. The wages of sin is death; final.
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