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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  00:17:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSLISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html

IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html


POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  16:46:00  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
In the last link that you provide Slagle states:

quote:
Sovereign Holy Love can only act in harmony with His nature. Thus He cannot perpetuate error, pain and evil. Nor can He “allow” them to exist forever. For Omnipotent, Omnipresent Love Himself always succeeds and never fails. Therefore, Calvary MUST succeed for all the world—for any exception would mean an eternal victory for satan.


How can a god that is all 'good', create an existence that contains evil? The very act of creating such, would be, as Slagle states, against his nature.

Godless Heathen
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  21:01:09  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
God introduced evil and suffering into creation for wise ends, and when these ends have been achieved He will erradicate both evil and suffering from existence.

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

Copy and paste into Google
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
Copy and paste into Google
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, Col. 1:20, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

Copy and paste into Google
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
Copy and paste into Google
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
And
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

Copy and paste into Google
THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE AND DETERMINED TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND SOONER OR LATER WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

Copy and paste into Google
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (online reading)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  21:53:23  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
You are still not confronting the question. Your statement was that there could be no hell for eternity, as god is completely 'good' by nature.

If this is so, that inherant 'goodness' would not create existence with suffering either, it would also be against it's nature. TO just say this is for 'wise ends', just dodges this fact, and does not confront it.

The whole concepts you present break down, you are saying that the nature of a god is such that eternal torment cannot possibly occur, yet at the same time, there was a god that created the whole of existence, which contains suffering and pain, as a method. You cannot just arbitrarily place on one hand, a fact, but deny it on another.

If there was an inherantly good god that could not by nature create an eternity of suffering, by its nature, it could not create an existence with it, using your same argument.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  22:08:22  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

In the last link that you provide Slagle states:

quote:
Sovereign Holy Love can only act in harmony with His nature. Thus He cannot perpetuate error, pain and evil. Nor can He “allow” them to exist forever. For Omnipotent, Omnipresent Love Himself always succeeds and never fails. Therefore, Calvary MUST succeed for all the world—for any exception would mean an eternal victory for satan.


How can a god that is all 'good', create an existence that contains evil? The very act of creating such, would be, as Slagle states, against his nature.
quote:

Davo, In a previous post I pointed out to you that God did not create "evil"...Lucifer chose that path when he turned on God and rebelled against His Creator...and as I also pointed out that HE/GOD gave us ( Lucifer included ) the freedom of " choice " as to what path we choose to follow.


Edited by - Kevin on 25 Apr 2009 22:14:53
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  22:23:08  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Davo, In a previous post I pointed out to you that God did not create "evil"...Lucifer chose that path when he turned on God and rebelled against His Creator...and as I also pointed out that HE/GOD gave us ( Lucifer included ) the freedom of " choice " as to what path we choose to follow.



Exactly. If this is a purely good god, the ultimate in purely good as presented by rodgertutt, by it's very nature unable to create 'hell', it could ALSO not be able to create a situation where evil exists. It would not by it's very nature, create beings, and a whole existence, whereby evil exists. If it is also purely good, and able to do anything, it must, by it's nature, prevent it, or stop it.

This is one of the issues I am facing, in the concept of their being a god, as presented by the major religions, let alone understanding why the bible, a work of man, is accepted as being the word of god, so readily.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 25 Apr 2009 22:24:22
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  22:37:23  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

Sorry about the mess-up above...I haven't quite figured out how to "quote properly" as you can see!

It's' a bit frustrating because it makes it difficult to be able to have a more efficient exchange of points!...and I've just found I couldn't even delete the post it self.
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  22:49:34  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
lol no worries Kevin, I could see what you were saying, it was clear, and as always appreciate your input.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  23:00:07  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

In answer to your above post reg, "hell"...we and he/Lucifer created "hell" by our own actions!

In Regards to rodgertutts posts...there are many points I would question!

Another thing I'd like to mention is...that theres a difference between " eternal punishment" and " eternal punishing "!



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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  23:09:18  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Kevin, would not a god, that knows everything, from beginning to end, understand and know exactly what would happen, before creating?

Effectively just putting in motion a 'machine' with a known start, middle, and end?

To us that may seem like choice, but it would have been predetermined before creation. yet this god, chose to create it like so. Being all powerful, it could have created anything it wanted, but it chose to create a system such that is, containing pure evil, and condemn people to suffering, and souls to an eternity of it.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 25 Apr 2009 23:12:26
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  23:15:59  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I should have asked .. what is the difference between eternal punishment, and eternal punishing?

If there was an all powerful, all seeing, all good god, the paradox remains that existence as we know it, could not be. By it's very nature, such a being would not create such.

How could an all loving being, create us all with sin, for our ancestors eating a fruit? it goes against the concept.

Sorry for my confusion.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  23:28:30  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Eternal punishment ( eternal death ), Eternal punishing ( eternal suffering ).

The scriptures don't teach that He/God created sin; sin came through disobedience to God, and that disobedience started in the garden of Eden!

Edited by - Kevin on 25 Apr 2009 23:31:04
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  00:15:27  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Would a supreme being not have known this before creating?

Would a supreme being not have known exactly everything that would happen? How can you say we have choice, if it knew exactly everything that would occur, and chose to create it thus do so? that is fate, not choice! we may see it from our perspective as choice, but to such a being, it created, knowing exactly what would happen.

If a supreme being decided to create a situation, whereby the eating of an apple, would lead to humans having to suffer, children to live in pain, that those not 'priviledged' enough to be able to interpret the 'clues' it left in a book written by men or be brought up in another religion, to be condemned to an eternity of fire and suffering, how could it be 'pure good'? How would we have 'choice'? This being knew exactly what would happen, and chose to create, thus have everything happen.

Can you see this paradox?

Godless Heathen
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  02:45:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition” click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down to
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!


THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (an online scriptural exposition)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  03:43:42  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
So are you going to answer the questions?

It seems to me that you are just glossing over basic fundamental questions, and taking your 'beliefs' on a massive spree, without at all confronting the basics of logic that your premise rely on.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 26 Apr 2009 03:46:31
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  05:02:44  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I thought I responded to your questions quite throughly.
If anyone else reads what we have written they will decide how well I responded to your questions.

For me the corollary to my opinions is just as important as the opinions themselves. The corollary is that when the chips are down and I am overwhelmed by life's negatives to the point where I can't make my wonderful theology work for me in a practical way, yet even that sorry state of affairs is something that God will eventually transform into something better that it temporarily prevailed.

I believe like Dr. Leslie Weatherhead does who said
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Edited by - rodgertutt on 26 Apr 2009 07:27:39
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  08:39:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

Would a supreme being not have known this before creating?

Would a supreme being not have known exactly everything that would happen? How can you say we have choice, if it knew exactly everything that would occur, and chose to create it thus do so? that is fate, not choice! we may see it from our perspective as choice, but to such a being, it created, knowing exactly what would happen.

If a supreme being decided to create a situation, whereby the eating of an apple, would lead to humans having to suffer, children to live in pain, that those not 'priviledged' enough to be able to interpret the 'clues' it left in a book written by men or be brought up in another religion, to be condemned to an eternity of fire and suffering, how could it be 'pure good'? How would we have 'choice'? This being knew exactly what would happen, and chose to create, thus have everything happen.

Can you see this paradox?


Everyone has the choice to choose between right or wrong/ good or evil including yourself.

I personally dont accept the teaching of 'eternal burning' as others would, but the scriptures do teach of a fire where the unrepentant and evil doers will be punished for a time, and I believe when the appropriate punishment for the individual has been completed...eternal death ( oblivion ) follows. ( eternal punishment )

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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  16:06:43  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
rodgertutt :

What lesson is this god teaching children raped or tortured? The fact is you haven't approached the problem of evil, other than to say it is to teach us lessons, but you have no basis in that. You identify that by gods nature, being ultimately good, there could not be a 'hell', yet, this god, has created existence, which included satan/lucifer. This god must have known what it was creating and chose to create it. He chose to create everything, including suffering. To teach us what? that he can? what would a supreme being need with us?

What 'truth' is there, that points to the bible as being the word of god above allah, Thor, krishna, osiris or any other?

thanks for your reply in advance.

And Kevin, you keep saying that, I understand, but you are missing the concept of a god that knows everything by definition, before creation :

If we had choice, we would be able to do something that god did not forsee when he chose to make everything. Before making everything he must by the nature of a god, know of everything that would occur in doing so. To us that would be 'choice', but to him, he just set in motion something that he knew everything that would happen, and chose to do so. He would of known every single path right down to the thoughts of everyone in that 'machine' that he 'designed', if he didn't, there would be no reason to call it god.

That's fate, not choice. He would have created everything, knowing the result of everything. to us measly humans, it would appear as choice, but in reality, we have no way to break out of the known result god had, upon creation. If we did, we would be a god ourselves, able to do something that god didn't expect already.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  17:43:47  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Doesn't matter what God can forsee...you have the ability to make choices; the responsibility still lies with you... eg. if you dont look after your health you can fall ill. We are all responsible for our actions, and heres another example! if you do the crime you do the time!

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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  22:15:42  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

quote:
Originally posted by davo

Would a supreme being not have known this before creating?
Would a supreme being not have known exactly everything that would happen? How can you say we have choice, if it knew exactly everything that would occur, and chose to create it thus do so? that is fate, not choice! we may see it from our perspective as choice, but to such a being, it created, knowing exactly what would happen.
If a supreme being decided to create a situation, whereby the eating of an apple, would lead to humans having to suffer, children to live in pain, that those not 'priviledged' enough to be able to interpret the 'clues' it left in a book written by men or be brought up in another religion, to be condemned to an eternity of fire and suffering, how could it be 'pure good'? How would we have 'choice'? This being knew exactly what would happen, and chose to create, thus have everything happen.
Can you see this paradox?


Everyone has the choice to choose between right or wrong/ good or evil including yourself.
I personally dont accept the teaching of 'eternal burning' as others would, but the scriptures do teach of a fire where the unrepentant and evil doers will be punished for a time, and I believe when the appropriate punishment for the individual has been completed...eternal death ( oblivion ) follows. ( eternal punishment )


You might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.
The book that best shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four
(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

There are also several expositions that do the same thing on a less comprehensive scale. They are accessed through the search engine at the top of the front page at http://www.tentmaker.org

For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
THE DOCTRINE OF ANNIHILATION
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html

Here is an intro to the book
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/

Introduction
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.

The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)

The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.

Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  22:51:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

rodgertutt :

What lesson is this god teaching children raped or tortured? The fact is you haven't approached the problem of evil, other than to say it is to teach us lessons, but you have no basis in that. You identify that by gods nature, being ultimately good, there could not be a 'hell', yet, this god, has created existence, which included satan/lucifer. This god must have known what it was creating and chose to create it. He chose to create everything, including suffering. To teach us what? that he can? what would a supreme being need with us?

What 'truth' is there, that points to the bible as being the word of god above allah, Thor, krishna, osiris or any other?

thanks for your reply in advance.

And Kevin, you keep saying that, I understand, but you are missing the concept of a god that knows everything by definition, before creation :

If we had choice, we would be able to do something that god did not forsee when he chose to make everything. Before making everything he must by the nature of a god, know of everything that would occur in doing so. To us that would be 'choice', but to him, he just set in motion something that he knew everything that would happen, and chose to do so. He would of known every single path right down to the thoughts of everyone in that 'machine' that he 'designed', if he didn't, there would be no reason to call it god.

That's fate, not choice. He would have created everything, knowing the result of everything. to us measly humans, it would appear as choice, but in reality, we have no way to break out of the known result god had, upon creation. If we did, we would be a god ourselves, able to do something that god didn't expect already.



Personally, I could not perceive the Bible as "the word of God" if I did not also perceive that it teaches the eventual salvation of everyone from evil and its consequenses. In order to maintain my sanity I would have to reject the Bible as being the word of God and live out my life as an agnostic if I was forced to believe that it teaches inescapable eternal suffering for anyone. Unless I am mistaken, the Bible is the only holy book that teaches universal salvation. Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us where there is no more crying, pain, sorrow or death. I believe that sooner or later everyone will go to that place.

I believe in theistic fatalism, or absolute determinism. I believe that everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it or prevent it from happening.

Since we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence, there cannot be "free will," not even in a limited sense. It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The fact that we choose it shows that we prefered it at least slightly more than an infuence that was almost just as strong.

We do share one thing in common with robots and that is causality. Everything we do and believe is the product of a cause just like it is for a robot.

Hardly anyone (not even Christians) believe that "God operates all in accord with the councel of His own will." Ephesians 1:11

According to what I see in the Bible, God has a plan for the ages of time to use the existence of evil and suffering to achieve a more glorious future for everyone because of the temporary existence of it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

Each person will be fitted into God's master plan in a way that requires their own unique involvement in evil and suffering. And God will use each person's involvement in evil and suffering to manifest and glorify and magnify the many aspects of His character in a unique way.
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2009 :  22:58:53  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Doesn't matter what God can forsee...you have the ability to make choices; the responsibility still lies with you... eg. if you dont look after your health you can fall ill. We are all responsible for our actions, and heres another example! if you do the crime you do the time!


But according to the Bible the time we do is not eternal.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Sure it is true that we are the ones who make the choices.
But it is also true that we always choose in the direction of the strongest influence every time. Therefore there cannot be "free will." See my previous post.
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2009 :  01:29:27  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Eternal is a 'constant word' through the scriptures...if the time we do is not eternal, then what is it?

Strongest influences!...regardless of them; God has given us a conscience, and he expects us to use it.
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2009 :  11:25:22  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
hmm interesting rodgertutt .. your ideas seem very deist, and one of the first here that have explained how they deal with certain paradox like 'free will', and I thank you for that!

I will have to ponder and read your links some more, thanks

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2009 :  11:53:26  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I see, rodgertutt ... determinism basically denies that there is free will.

Very interesting I must say, I have some questions regarding this that I will collate and try and keep minimal and clear, coming soon ...

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2009 :  14:51:42  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
From Ellen Whites book-"The Great Controversy"
Chapter 33 'The First Great Deception', pgs. 535,36.






How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.

536

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages.

It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels.

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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2009 :  04:48:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Eternal is a 'constant word' through the scriptures...if the time we do is not eternal, then what is it?


In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God’s plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words (“ages,” “course,” “end,” “eternal,” and “world.”) to translate this one word.

And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as “ages.”

Talk about confusion compounded!

Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God’s truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!

Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God’s glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

The salvation of first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be completed after the first resurrection.
The salvation of the non-elect will be completed after the great white throne judgment.
For scriptural evidence that this is so see
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2009 :  04:54:49  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

You are still not confronting the question. Your statement was that there could be no hell for eternity, as god is completely 'good' by nature.

If this is so, that inherant 'goodness' would not create existence with suffering either, it would also be against it's nature. TO just say this is for 'wise ends', just dodges this fact, and does not confront it.

The whole concepts you present break down, you are saying that the nature of a god is such that eternal torment cannot possibly occur, yet at the same time, there was a god that created the whole of existence, which contains suffering and pain, as a method. You cannot just arbitrarily place on one hand, a fact, but deny it on another.

If there was an inherantly good god that could not by nature create an eternity of suffering, by its nature, it could not create an existence with it, using your same argument.



My only purpose on this forum is to guide people to the evidence that the Bible teaches the eventual salvation of everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to WANT to or have to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 70 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION?
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
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rodgertutt
Lieutenant

Canada
44 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2009 :  04:58:43  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

I see, rodgertutt ... determinism basically denies that there is free will.

Very interesting I must say, I have some questions regarding this that I will collate and try and keep minimal and clear, coming soon ...



MY PERCEPTION REGARDING FREE WILL
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2010 :  19:35:49  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by rodgertutt

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Eternal is a 'constant word' through the scriptures...if the time we do is not eternal, then what is it?


quote:
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God’s plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words (“ages,” “course,” “end,” “eternal,” and “world.”) to translate this one word.
Rodger, all your doing here is playing word games, to me eternity is eternity ( neverending).

quote:
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as “ages.”
So we only spend a generation or twice as "ages" in heaven.? Eternity means eternity.!

quote:
Talk about confusion compounded!
I think your confused Rodger....

quote:
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God’s truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
There's no scriptural evidence to support your claim that "all fallen creatures" will be saved at the close of human history. Those are the lost.

quote:
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them.
Here again your just playing with words I'm afraid.

quote:
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion.
And here you go again Rodger....eternity is eternity.
quote:
It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
I don't take "eternal torment or eternal fire" literally as I've pointed out in previous posts, but thats me.! The short quote from the book above that I posted, shares my view on the eternal burning of flesh & blood.

quote:
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion.
So Rodger are you saying theres no such thing as eternity.?
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